Finite Downline - Skim Piramid Paling Senang Nak Explain.

Komen Aidid Mu'addib di Say No To MLM di facebook, 24 Okt 2010: Jgn adik2 semua kompius. Dajjal MLM suka kuar statement macam2 dan berbelit2... mau kasi gah gitu, mau kasi canggih gitu. Simple je dek... Kalau org ajak join biz dan ada syarat pencarian tajaan 2 atau lebih, that's it - itu SKIM PIRAMID le tu. Kalau duplikasi syarat itu berlaku berterusan, suatu hari biz tu akan crash. Ini macam manusia buat dosa la kiranya, dan dia tak mo pikir hari kiamat tu akan berlaku. Dia hanya fikir setakat downline kat bawah shj, downline level 12 bukan problem dia. Macam akhirat tu cerita dongeng gitu...

Dear readers,

Of all the "businesses" that has been roaming around facebook for the last year or so, INFINITY DOWNLINE (which I always prefer to call FINITE DOWNLINE - because, where's the infinity factor man?) is the clearest pyramid-scheme you could ever did find, anywhere - bar none! It's such a simple system to see inside-out, even Stevie Wonder can see it on a moonless night. The promotional sites for finite downline are everywhere on the internet, and in Malaysia... you'll find the name Celya and Morgan Tay, who fought tooth-and-nail every day, to keep this scheme going, and had even intruded into places where she shouldn't had been in the first place... that is, in the issue of halal and haram. Dear Celya... it's none of your business. From there, you all could all see that the muslim masses are her intended target population for this lousy pyramid-scheme. Don't you know that in Islam, we have strict rule regarding pyramid-scheme? To us, pyramid-scheme is a stupid way to earn money by uneducated (religion-wise) muslims. If you have muslims downlines, well you know what kind of muslims those people are. People, it's clear-cut HARAM. For a lousy RM100 a pop? When do you intend to get rich, btw? 2043? Haiya!

Anyway, here are Mrs. Tay's site:

http://www.infinitysuccessbuilders.com/compensation.html

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Infinity-Downline-Team-Success-Builders-Asia/306287230985

I don't intend to keep this going on and on, like I had done on previous discussions about other pyramid-schemes. I don't want complicate a real easy explanation, and bore you along the way. Anyway, I had prepared lots of flyers over the last year, and you can browse through down below. If you're up to it.

Eh! Baik la aku cakap Melayu. Mesti la ada bebudak Melayu yang tak paham langsung nanti. Dan yang peliknya, orang yang tak pandai baca BI tu jugak la yang nak jadi millionaire dengan finite downline ni atau skim-skim piramid yang lain-lain kat facebook. Menakjubkan beb! Ustaz Zaharuddin juga telah membincangkan dengan panjang lebar pasal isu ini, tapi anda semua boleh lihat kat facebook, saban hari ada aja bebudak Melayu (yg kat profile cakap "muslim") yang promote menatang ni kat wall. Macam... udah la tak pandai baca BI, baca BM pun tak jugak pandai agaknya, sebab Uzar dah bincangkan sepenuhnya tanpa kesangsian lagi keharamannya - dalam bahasa Melayu.

http://www.zaharuddin.net/senarai-lengkap-artikel/3/915-status-hukum-infinity-downline--login-facebook-dapat-rm100.html

Satu benda aku nak komen. Seperti dalam perbincangan Uzar di atas, dan soal-jawabnya dengan Celya Tay di bawah, Uzar macam tak nak terus pegi straight-to-the-point gitu. Banyak isu yang ditimbulkannya. Tapi, itu tanggungjawab dia aku kira, dia terangkan satu-persatu dengan cara berbudi-bahasa dan telus, sebab "he is what he is". Aidid Mu'addib ni lain sket... eh! lain banyak! "I say as I see it... consequence be damned!". Aku cakap aje apa yang ada depan mata. Kan ramai cakap Aidid Mu'addib kurang ajar dan suka maki-hamun orang? Aku tak boleh nafikan, memang betul tu. Agaknya. Tapi semua orang kan ada pandangan/opinion masing-masing? Pandangan aku... orang Islam yang buat skim piramid itu adalah orang munafik dalam masyarakat Islam, orang yang terang-terang jadi musuh dalam selimut. Orang yang buat mungkar, jadi... dah tanggungjawab aku (dan korang jugak?) untuk memerangi mereka ini. Mereka ini ambil duit daripada orang Islam lain dengan cara yang tidak halal dan tidak haq. Aku mesti perangi. And frankly, I am ruthless and I don't care what you think of me!

Anyway, korang tengok gambar yang aku ambik daripada website Celya Tay ni:

  

Dey, bukan skim piramid ke tu, dey? Penerangan kat kanan tu cakap, biar aku translate, "Setiap kali anda menaja seseorang, orang itu pula kan menaja orang lain dan orang lain itu pula menaja orang lain dan duplikasi akan berterusan... blablabladalabladabla". Dengan kata lain - SKIM PIRAMID. Kok susah sangat ke gitu? Dan katanya, "walaupun kaedah ini digunakan oleh sistem MLM, finite downline kasi 'fresh twist' dengan memperkenalkan sistem reverse 2-up." Nak terangkat bontot aku membacanya. What's your point man? Does it mean, it is a better pyramid-scheme? Pyramid-scheme is a pyramid-scheme, dan pada orang Islam yang luhur - HARAM! Duit yang sama haramnya macam menyamun, melacur, rasuah, ragut handbag, dan lain-lain lagi. Korang semua yang Islam pun tahu kan?

Tengok yang ini pulak:

  

Itulah dia sistem reverse 2-up finite downline ni, kena cari 4 downline minimum, tapi 2 kaki dapat kat upline anda (maksudnya menjangkau ke atas 1 level) lepas tu, downline yang lain semua 100% dapat pada anda. Itu yang infiniti katanya tu. Carilah berapa banyak anda mahu. Cuma, kalau Celya Tay ada 6 billion downline dalam dunia ni sekali pun, mana infiniti nya meh? Topik infiniti ni dah aku bincang panjang lebar dalam topik kerbausms, sila baca di sana ya? Tapi, biarkanlah Celya dengan infinitinya, orang Islam jangan sesekali beri'tiqad boleh buat infiniti dalam hidupnya. Ye la... macam kata Abdul Malique dan Azam Zainal, jangan cepat melatah kalau ada orang cakap perkataan "infiniti"... Tapi, itu tahap keislaman mamat berdua tu. Tahap keislaman Aidid Mu'addib tu lain dek. I'm bloody serious about such issues! Kalau dah syirik, dengan sedar atau tak sedar, sebab tak kesah dan tak terkincit pun bila orang dah bagi penerangan, abis la keislaman kita ni kan? That's my opinion.... in my life. In turn, I don't care about your opinion in this matter. Ini isu SYIRIK. Dan jangan nak argue lagi dengan aku... tak sudah-sudah la pulak!

  

OK... sekali tu saya google, sebab nak cari apa pandangan orang al-kafirun tentang finite downline ni. Ini yang saya jumpa:

  

Katanya, "bla bla bla... (kat last sekali)... ID ini, dalam pandangan saya, adalah salah satu lagi contoh sistem piramid yang bertopeng, seperti beribu lagi skim cepat kaya yang tidak akan dapat mengkotakan apa yang dijanjikannya." The End. Orang kafir tu pun cakap benda ni skim piramid. Dia pun tahu halal-haram, cuma dia tak ada alQuran, Hadith, atau majlis fatwa. Tapi, dia sendiri advice orang kafir lain supaya jangan join. Tapi, anda boleh lihat sendiri, saban hari, bebudak Melayu yang Islam sebok menjaja benda ni di facebook. Apekehenye yeop? Tak malu ke dek?

 

Jadi saya berpesan kepada diri saya sendiri dan kepada anda semua...

   

  
OK... udah la tu ya? This stupid thing is making me angry all over again. Those who join and get the littlest money from this stupid thang... you're a real special kinda stupid, aren't ya? Real dickheads... 33rd degree disciples of you know who!

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Flyers ulangkaji tentang SKIM PIRAMID finite downline:

  

      

    

      

      

  

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Di bawah adalah copy-paste drpd Uzar punya site. Ada copyright ke? Kalau Uzar komplen, aku akan delete.

I have received an email from one of the leader of Infinity Downline. In this entry, I would like to share my short reply to her email. Even though it is short and unable to cover lot of issues which need to be clarified i.e Shariah related issues, I am still hoping that it could give some additional benefit to the zaharuddin.net's readers.

From: Celya <celya_t@yahoo.com>

To: zaharuddin@yahoo.com

Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 5:01:07 PM

Subject: Questions on Islamic Perspective

Greetings Ustaz Zaharuddin,

I was just reading your article on facebook entitled "Web saya tutup perik nasi orang". I found it really informative.

I hope you don't mind, but i sincerely want to understand the Syariah law as i have Muslim customers and it is important to me that they feel comfortable, and that i am being fair. Would you please consider answering some of my questions? In your article you stated that you would entertain intelligent debate and while i am not here to debate, i am certainly interested in intelligent clarification and understanding from a factual perspective.

Referring to the below..

"Hukum asal seluruh urusniaga perniagaan dalam apa jua bentuk adalah harus kecuali ada dalil yang membuktikannya haram. Apabila telah wujud dalil menunjukkan ia haram serta tiada hujjah balasan konkrit untuk menafikannya, sesuatu urusniaga itu paling pun akan bertukar menjadi syubhat, jika tidak menjadi haram. Islam mengajar kita agar menjauhi syubhat sebagaimana yang disebut Umar Al-Khattab tadi walaupun terpaksa mengorban 9/10 cara niaga yang mungkin halal."

FIRSTLY, In the case of Infinity Downline, is this why you referred to the lack of a clear company identity as being ONE factor for it to be labelled as haram? Because Muslims cannot be sure who is behind the scene and therefore there cannot be conviction that it is "safe"?

I receive emails from the company (Multiplex) and they also provide weekly LIVE training on a webinar where we interact with the president itself (the webinar link is http://www.BootcampWebinar.com) The president isn't a CEO of a large corporation, but i think a small company, so it's not a multinational but it has of course gone international due to the power of the internet.)

This morning, we received a mail from Peter Wolfing himself as below (regarding when the library will be updated)

From: "Peter Wolfing" <ykia@nyc.rr.com>View contact details

To: "'Morgan TAy'" <morgantay2u@yahoo.com>

I have not had time to add more. Just keeping up with the growth is taking all my time. There is way more than what is charged anyway but I will add some soon.

Peter

So Peter exists and we are in touch with him weekly at the training webinars, the company exists BUT the thing is that members need to OPT in to receive contact as he sends out emails only to those who allow the company to contact them (unlike many companies that just keep sending emails whether we want it or not). Also, because it is not a large corporation - it is unlikely to be cost effective to set up a branch in malaysia.

My question now is - is this still considered 'gharar' to the Muslim? Meaning uncertain? (please forgive me if my understanding is poor as i am not familiar with the Islamic terms and am only following what i am capable of understanding from reading your articles. please feel free to point out if i am wrong as the purpose of me writing this whole email is to learn)

Or would this just be a different form of business, and not actually one intended to deceive? From what Mr. Irfan Khairi explained to me as well, i understand that this business does not make itself VERY apparent on the website because it is collecting a database list of emails and it is following the style of many businesses online now that offer a free ebook or video BEFORE you even know who they are. After giving the free ebook/video, THEN they introduce themselves. Is this then 'gharar' and therefore also then not acceptable practice in Islam?

I ask because i teach internet marketing methods and collecting a list is one online marketing method. However, if being 'invisible' while collecting the list is causing it to have a 'haram' elements then of course, i must tell that to my Muslim students.

I would then truly appreciate your help on this.

SECONDLY,

I use certain ID products in the library to train my students. Certainly i have benefitted from it, but of course I understand english and internet marketing very well. From what i understand ID is haram because MOST people do not want the products. However, if people join my coaching program (and i already tell them upfront i provide coaching for internet business BEFORE they sign up), and i direct them to listen to the specified products as well as provide my own training materials as part of my program for them, would they still be guilty of 'haram' as i am still using ID as my platform?

Again, i would so appreciate your help on this as i am not sure anymore if i should advertise my services to Muslims given that I will still be using the ID system for a while as it is the perfect live 'case study' for my students. (When they can start earning an income from implementing the methods i teach, then it is a good indication for me and them that they have benefitted from my program for them.)

THIRDLY,

The monthly fee is for the online system they get and not the same old products that yes, logically should only be paid for once. I too would be silly to pay for the same products every month. I pay monthly as i want the online system and viability of online storage of all the files i use for my program being easily downloadable from anywhere. I have a student in Sabah and one in Terengganu and having the files online as well as online business system makes it easy for me to deal with faraway clients in terms of registration and payment. And i only pay RM100 a month so i am okay with that.

My question is, is this still Riba for my muslim clients? I collect RM100 but for coaching i give plus of course the fee of the online business facilities they get. Is this conceptually unacceptable in Islam because most of the other titles in the library will not be used?

Again, I could set up my own system and compile my own videos and audios, but it was so much cheaper and easier for me when i started coaching to just use the ID registration system plus business tools in it.

But now i am unsure if it is okay for my Muslim clients.

Ustaz, I find that your opinions on many other articles are valid and justified and so i am writing to gain clarification.

I realise that i of course have a different view of the programme being non-muslim, but at the end of the day, if i am to have Muslim clients then they must be comfortable and i certainly do not want to be labelled as culturally insensitive. Your article on ID raised many doubts and questions so i would like very much, instead of speculation - to just clarify with you given these facts about the program that are somewhat different from what you initially spoke about.

I look forward to your reply and thank you very much in advance.

Yours sincerely,

Celya Tay

Home Business Consultant

http://ebizsuccessbuilders.info

________________________________________________________________

MY (ZAHARUDDIN) RESPONSE:

Hi Ms Celya,

Thanks for your email. I'll try to reply in a very simple manner as i really don't have much time to write long explanations.

Generally speaking, i do think that you have got most of my points from my article and response. By scrutinizing some of ID current website, it is realized that the team is currently trying to fix the problem by doubling the promotion of the products rather than the system. May be that way, the program might be appeared as the true selling products program. However, it is still not, at least from my perspective.

In response to your quires, my response will be as the following:-

1) Background of the company & Peter

It has been said that, Multiplex System is responsible of the ID program or scheme and it is regarded as the founder company and also the owner and provider of the products.

My question, what is the website for multiplex system company? Do you have any of the detail about the company such as management of the company, board of directors, audited financial report, license etc. the company is govern under which law and which country?

Is there any legal proof that multiplex system is responsible for any issues regarding ID program? Say that there is a problem with regard to the program i.e. the ID login system vanished, suspended, or the owner fleeing away, so is there any guarantee that multiplex company will always be there and take full responsibility on all the their customer's fund ? If not, where can the participant seek help to? It is not about the company only but also the regulation adn law which regulates them.

That is what i mean by 'gharar' (uncertainty elements which could tantamount to quarrel, argument and coercion). Forwarding Peter Wolfing's very short email is absolutely will prove nothing in that regard. It has to be noted thatBernard Mardoff is million times popular that Peter Wolfing but he is still running a scam business.

I understood that some of the home marketing or internet business need not to have a big premise to run the business. However it is different when it involves lot of people, and lot of people's money, moreover the company is offering and attracting consumers to the commission system which need to be monitored carefully to avoid fraud, cheating etc. The case is totally different from an internet seller or marketer who is selling real asset such as map etc to their clients. There is no commission system and he is the only one who sells and conducts the business. In addition, all the deals are from the type of one off deal. This is obviously not for the ID program.

2) Products

As i said and you have also quoted it in one of your website, yes, for those who join the program to benefit from the products in a genuine manner and concurrently take advantage of the commission system, it might be permissible (but still depend on other issues) but in reality, the otherwise happened. So in Islam, in order to determine the precise ruling, we will have to focus on the majority of the participants and how the company advertise itself. In many cases both of them are already portraying that their true intention of joining the program or scheme, is to benefit from the commissioning system which as a result will simultaneously evolve as a money game. However the minority might be exempted from the prohibition (but still depend on other issues as well). The same situation applied to the company in which is putting lot of their efforts in promoting the system rather than the products.

Have i seen the products?

Yes I have seen some of the videos and listened to some of the audios. I find it ok and acceptable but to a very small number of people. Therefore I have regarded such products as 'rubbish' although i have to admit that for some quarters they would perceive the products to have value and good information which they might need. However, as i told you, the majority views, and their behaviors and how they treat the products and promote the program will give us clues on how relevant is the product to them, and also whether or not they are 'rubbish'.

It is observed that campaigns and promotions which are made by many of ID participants (and also Login Facebook dapat RM 100) are not giving any attention to the products.

Another issue with regards to the products is that it is unclear whether the products are being sold or leased by monthly payment for access. Some tries to relate the monthly payment fee as a rental whereas other said that the prroduct is being sold. Anyhow, it is noted that many of the products can still be downloaded and saved into your PC. So which one? Is there anywhere this rule is being mentioned in the registration form etc.? All of these are gharar in Islamic point of view.

The regulations are unclear as to whether it is lease by monthly payment or being sold to the customer. If the fees payment are representing a lease payment, why in the world it can be saved and downloaded freely?.

Such unclear term related to the products also convinced me that actually the company has no serious attention on selling or promoting the products. For that reason also they are promoting the products in a bundle. If the products are really good and can be sold or leased and worth for money, the company will absolutely sell or lease them separately as it can bring more profit. However, i am sure that they have no confidence to sell the products and in fact, i am almost sure that most of the people WILL NOT PURCHASE OR LEASE the products if there is NO REVERSE TWO UP SYSTEM in place.

Without the true products, the system is a money game and fall under the category of riba from the Islamic viewpoint. If the products really have their own qualities and are marketable by itself, the commission should also be based on the price if each product and not by way of registration fee or whatever you wanted call it.

From Muslim jurist point of view when :

a) The products have no special qualities

b) The promotion is more toward head hunting and promoting the benefit of the system lot more than the explaination on the benefit of the products

c) Commission is based on the registration or monthly fees and not in accordance to each and every product which has been sold by the participants.

Such program or scheme will still be deemed as money game and Riba, furthermore it would also fall under that category of gambling as well.

As for non Muslim, it is up to them and their belief but for Muslim i am responsible to prevent such scheme, program or whatever you want to call it from spreading to our Muslim brothers and sisters.

In Islam, they are many rules in obtaining wealth; one of them is that you must not gain without putting an equal effort. In some circumstances, profit or gain must be associated to certain type of real business risk. This is to ensure wealth are being created and not transferred. One needs to comprehend this philosophy in order to understand the issue.

Actually i can say that i have plenty of other arguments but i am sorry, for my inability to response or clarify all of the contentious issues with regards to the program as the time is very limited and there is lot of other tasks which need to attend to, finally I hope that this email could clarify something if not everything.

Thanks and best regards,

Zaharuddin Abd Rahman

www.zaharuddin.net

17 March 2010

  

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